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Breaking News from The Ringling Trial

Quotes from Court Transcripts

from the Landmark Federal Lawsuit Against Ringling Bros. for Its Mistreatment of Asian Elephants February 4th-March 18th, 2009

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  • Use of Bullhook:

    Q. And you have seen Ringling Brothers' employees strike elephants with bullhooks, haven't you?
    A. Strike, hit, touch, tap, yes. Whatever the terminology is you'd like to use, yes.
    Q. And you've seen them, Ringling Brothers' employees, use the hooked end of the bullhook to prod elephants behind the ears, haven't you?
    A. I've seen them use both sides of the bullhook behind the ear of the elephant, yes.
    Q. And you have also seen Ringling Brothers' employees strike elephants under the chin with a bullhook, haven't you?
    A. Yes.

    Kenneth Feld, CEO of Feld Entertainment, parent company that owns Ringling Brothers, Trial Tr. 34:25-35:11, March 3, 2009 pm.

    Q. The elephant is reminded that when I say, when the handler says "pick up your head," you better pick up your head or you're going to get hit with that bullhook again, isn't that correct?
    A. It may or may not be. I believe it may be correct.
    Q. Now, you also agree that discipline is currently used to handle the elephants at Feld Entertainment, isn't that correct?
    A. I think so, yes.

    Kenneth Feld, CEO of Feld Entertainment, parent company that owns Ringling Brothers, Trial Tr. 41:18-41:24, March 3, 2009 pm.

    Q. Well, now I'm getting confused, because you said "touch" is synonymous with "strike," so if I said that would mean all of your handlers also strike elephants with bullhooks, correct?
    A. If you want to put in that phrase. I said they're all verbs, so I guess you could say yes. Q. So you're aware that all of your elephant handlers strike elephants with bullhooks, correct?
    A. Yes, um-hmm.

    Kenneth Feld, CEO of Feld Entertainment, parent company that owns Ringling Brothers., Trial Tr. 43:9-43:16, March 3, 2009 pm.

    Q. Actually I'd like to call that testimony up, if I could. That would be Mr. Ridley's (elephant handler on Blue Unit) deposition at line 55 -- page 55, line twenty. This was a deposition given by Mr. Ridley on August 25th, 2006.

    Question: Okay. How often do you see puncture wounds caused by bullhooks?
    Answer: Probably three to four times a month. That's with the whole herd of elephants.
    Question: And where do you typically see those puncture wounds?
    Answer: Under the chin. Occasionally on the back of the leg.

    Kenneth Feld, CEO of Feld Entertainment, parent company that owns Ringling Brothers, Trial Tr. 50:16-51:2, March 3, 2009 pm.

    THE COURT: All right. Have you seen elephant trainers/handlers put bullhooks up their sleeves, up their 4 sleeve like that during the shows at Ringling Brothers?
    THE WITNESS: Yes.
    THE COURT: Why do they do that?
    THE WITNESS: No, no, no. Nowadays because of all the problems we're having.
    THE COURT: What problems?
    THE WITNESS: With the animal rights people, they're always there, and they talk so much about this being bad, the less they see of it, better, so you try to hide it because it looks bad to them.
    THE COURT: It looks bad to?
    THE WITNESS: To these people who try to make other people see it as bad.

    Daniel Raffo, animal handler for Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 65:2-65:16, March 4, 2009 am.

    THE COURT: So you don't really need the hook then?
    THE WITNESS: What do you mean? You have the hook as part of the daily routine.
    THE COURT: Right. But you're telling me there is no way to stop an elephant from charging you, hurting you. So why do you use the hook?
    THE WITNESS: Because that is what has been used to create a routine and to teach the elephants with.

    Daniel Raffo, animal handler for Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 69:5-69:12, March 4, 2009 am.

    THE COURT: Could you control the elephants with those bamboo sticks you use with the tigers?
    THE WITNESS: I did use the bamboo sometimes, yes.
    THE COURT: With elephants?
    THE WITNESS: Yes, I did that. I always try different things and try this can work, this can be like that, it can be easy for me to work. I, you know, I always try different things myself. I always try to find a better way to do it.

    Daniel Raffo, animal handler for Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 70:13-70:20, March 4, 2009 am.

    THE COURT: Why is it there, then? (referring to the point of the bullhook)
    THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. It is there for a reason.
    THE COURT: That's what I'm getting at. What's the reason?
    THE WITNESS: To direct the elephant away from you. If you use the cue point on this side of the elephant's head, you'd touch her hair. You'd touch her hair with it.
    THE COURT: Why do you need that point, though? Why couldn't you just shave that point off and just have it have a rubber end or something?
    THE WITNESS: Well, you want it -- it's to feel it. They need to feel it. Their skin is really thick. I mean --
    THE COURT: So you have to have something to get the elephant's attention?
    THE WITNESS: Yes.

    Kari Johnson, owner Have Trunk Will Travel, Incorporated, Trial Tr. 53:3-53:17, March 4, 2009 pm.

    Q. They can feel pain from bull hooks, correct?
    A. They can feel pain from anything I would think. I think it's different than the pain they'd feel from a fly or perception.
    Q. But they can still feel pain from it?
    A. Yes.

    Kari Johnson, owner Have Trunk Will Travel, Incorporated, Trial Tr. 108:12-108:17, March 4, 2009 pm.

    THE COURT: For the elephant, don't they have head dresses on occasion, especially in the shows, the circus shows?
    THE WITNESS: They do.
    THE COURT: Couldn't you put some sort of leash on that and guide the elephant?
    THE WITNESS: But you need something so they will respond to you, you know. That's why the hook.
    THE COURT: You need something sharp that they'll respond to, is that what you're saying?
    THE WITNESS: The guide is pointed and sharp.
    THE COURT: It's pointed, that's why you have the hook instead of a leash, because it gets the elephant's attention, right?
    THE WITNESS: Right, but if you pulled on a, say, you put a collar on an elephant and you pulled on it --
    THE COURT: Right.

    Gary Johnson, owner Have Trunk Will Travel, Incorporated, Trial Tr. 28:29-:14, March 5, 2009 am.

    THE COURT: You need something to penetrate that skin then?
    THE WITNESS: You don't necessarily penetrate it, no, sir.
    THE COURT: Then why do you need it then if it doesn't penetrate the skin?
    THE WITNESS: It's like a fly biting them or a horsefly, for instance, biting them. Does it hurt them? Probably not. Does it irritate them? Maybe. They try to get it off of them. So it's basically the same principle, I believe.
    THE COURT: It's using a fly.
    THE WITNESS: Well, but you can't put a fly --
    THE COURT: You can't train a fly.
    THE WITNESS: Exactly.
    THE COURT: If you could train a fly, then you wouldn't need a hook.
    THE WITNESS: Exactly, sir.

    Gary Johnson, owner Have Trunk Will Travel, Incorporated, Trial Tr. 29:21-30:13, March 5, 2009 am.

    Q. And you said in your deposition that one of the differences with the use of the bullhook in Thailand was in your opinion there's no rhyme or reason to the use of the bullhook, right?
    A. Right. And again, I did not -- I do not understand the language, and just watching visually, that was what I came up with, but again, not knowing the language and what they're trying to communicate to the elephant, it's just foreign to me.
    Q. But in your opinion, having no rhyme or reason for your use of the bullhook, it would be an inappropriate use of that tool, correct?
    A. Yes.

    Gary Johnson, owner Have Trunk Will Travel, Incorporated, Trial Tr. 52:23-53:8, March 5, 2009 am.

    Q. And Mr. Houcke had to use his bull hook to get her to lay down, didn't he?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And he used his bull hook on her ear?
    A. The top of her ear, yes.
    Q. On the top of her head?
    A. It's possible. I didn't, you know, see it. It's a little far away, but it is possible.
    Q. He used his bull hook on her back, right?
    A. Possibly. Again, I didn't see that directly, but it's possible.
    Q. And he used his bull hook repeatedly, didn't he?
    A. He continued to use it until she'd lied down, yes.
    Q. And most people would call that an elephant beating, wouldn't they?
    MS. JOINER: Objection. Argumentative.
    THE COURT: It probably is. What would you call it? Are you familiar with that term?
    THE WITNESS: Oh, well. Yeah, I've heard the term, obviously. I wouldn't --
    THE COURT: What does that term mean to you?
    THE WITNESS: Inflicting pain and injury on an elephant is what I would call a beating.
    BY MS. SANERIB:
    Q. What would you call repeated use of a bull hook on an elephant?
    A. Continuing -- consistency. You have to finish the --follow through, otherwise, you know, they're not going to listen. So I'd call it following up; I wouldn't call it beating.

    Carrie Coleman, former veterinary technician for the Red Unit of Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 19:5-20:9, March 5, 2009 pm.

    Q. And it was also your testimony that after Mr. Houcke was down with the elephants, they were bloody, right?
    A. They had blood on them, yes.
    Q. Okay. And they had blood on their backs and on their heads, correct?
    A. On the forehead, yes.

    Carrie Coleman, former veterinary technician for the Red Unit of Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 21:13-21:18, March 5, 2009 pm.

    Q. How often are guides used with the free contact elephants at Feld Entertainment?
    A. Really, not very much.
    Q. And when do the handlers at Feld Entertainment carry the guides?
    A. They always have one if they have an elephant loose.
    Q. Why is that?
    A. It is only way you can stay safe.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 71:12-71:19 March 5, 2009 pm.

    Q. And after the baby elephants are separated from their mothers, another part of the training of the young elephants is to teach them what a bullhook is, correct?
    A. Yes.
    Q. All right. And you're responsible for training the baby elephants to know how to respond to the bullhook, aren't you?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And isn't it true that as part of the training process the baby elephants are hit with bullhooks?
    A. Not as part of a training process, no.
    Q. Okay. Well, you call it correction, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Part of the correction process, the baby elephants are hit with bullhooks, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. All right. And that's to correct their behavior, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. All right. And when you say "correct," you mean getting the elephant to comply with your wishes; is that right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. For example, Benjamin was hit with a bullhook during the training process, wasn't he?
    A. He would have, yes.
    Q. And in addition to hitting the elephants with a bullhook, another way to correct them is to tie them up, put them in chains, right?
    A. It can be.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 43:13-44:14 March 9, 2009 am.

    Q. And in fact, isn't it true that you have never video-taped any of your training sessions when were you actually teaching the elephants how to do their commands for the first time?
    A. We do not normally video, no.
    Q. You've never done it, have you?
    A. I don't think so, no.
    Q. And in fact, you would not let the public relations department or any other department of Feld Entertainment to come down there and videotape one of those training sessions, would you?
    A. We normally do not video.
    Q. You wouldn't let the P.R. department come down and do it, would you?
    A. Probably not.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 45:14-46:2 March 9, 2009 am.

    THE COURT: What amount of force is excessive, in your view?
    THE WITNESS: More than is needed to have the elephant do what you're asking it to do.
    THE COURT: So whatever amount of force gets the job done is appropriate, is that a fair statement?
    THE WITNESS: You never --
    THE COURT: Is that a fair statement?
    THE WITNESS: No.
    THE COURT: Well, what's wrong with that statement?
    THE WITNESS: Because there's points --
    THE COURT: You told me the amount of force necessary to do something, correct, to get elephant to react; is that right?
    THE WITNESS: To get attention, yes.
    THE COURT: So then whatever amount of force is utilized to get the elephant to perform a behavior is appropriate, is that a fair statement?
    THE WITNESS: But there are sometimes where we don't--
    THE COURT: Is that a fair statement?
    THE WITNESS: Yes, sir, that's a fair statement.

    Brian French, senior elephant handler for the Blue Unit of Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 54:6-55:2 March 12, 2009 am.

    THE COURT: Or if you're trying to get them to perform, couldn't a puncture occur under those circumstances, if you're trying to get an elephant to respond to a behavior command?
    THE WITNESS: It could, yes.

    Brian French, senior elephant handler for the Blue Unit of Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 56:8-56:12 March 12, 2009 am.

    THE COURT: Are you saying that it's the expectation of pain that prompts the elephant to do what he or she does?
    THE WITNESS: With the example that was given me?
    THE COURT: Yeah.
    THE WITNESS: To me that's poor training. So the elephant gets used to that kind of treatment, and so then if you go over there and just cue it lightly, it won't do it because it's not used to that. It's used to being more hooked, I guess, so then it will behave that way. So basically in that situation --
    THE COURT: What about the presence of the hook itself, though, just the presence, just the visual presence of the hook?
    THE WITNESS: Well, I think if it's used inappropriately, then it can be a problem to the elephant. The elephant can learn to fear it.

    Mike Keele, deputy director of living collections for the Oregon Zoo, Trial Tr. 47:21-48:10 March 12, 2009, afternoon.

    Q. So just to be clear about this, an elephant can be afraid at just the sight of a guide. Correct?
    A. It could be.
    Q. And that would be an elephant who had in fact had pain inflicted on it by the use of the guide. Correct?
    A. That would be a reason.

    Mike Keele, deputy director of living collections for the Oregon Zoo, Trial Tr. 62:8-62:13, March 12, 2009, afternoon.

    Q. And again, so if the use of the guide is used in a way that an elephant would be fearful, you would regard that as improper use of the guide. Is that correct?
    A. Well, if it was done that way intentionally, yes.
    Q. If it was done intentionally so that the elephant becomes fearful of the use of the guide. Correct?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And that would be if the elephant experiences pain as a consequence of the use of the guide. Correct?
    A. No.
    Q. So an elephant would not become fearful, but it would experience pain. Is that what you're saying?
    A. They could, yes.

    Mike Keele, deputy director of living collections for the Oregon Zoo, Trial Tr. 62:21-63:8, March 12, 2009, afternoon.

    Q. And in fact, it's also the case that elephants should not be routinely struck with the bull hook. Correct?
    A. Correct.
    Q. And if an institution had a situation where its handlers were routinely striking the elephant with the bull hook, that would also be a concern. Correct?
    A. Well, with my experience, yes, it would be. We would terminate the individual.

    Mike Keele, deputy director of living collections for the Oregon Zoo, Trial Tr. 88:9-88:13, March 12, 2009, afternoon.

    Q. And I think you testified before that routine striking simply to obtain compliance is ordinarily not appropriate behavior. Correct?
    A. That's correct, I did.
    Q. Correct, that it's not appropriate?
    A. Right.

    Mike Keele, deputy director of living collections for the Oregon Zoo, Trial Tr. 105:17-105-22, March 12, 2009, afternoon.

  • Chaining of Elephants:

    Q. When you transport your elephants, how are they transported?
    A. By truck.
    Q. And are they chained during transport?
    A. Usually, yes.
    Q. Is there an option for not chaining the elephants during transport?
    A. Sometimes we don't; in general, we do.
    Q. But that's available in your transport vehicle a way to transport an elephant without it being chained, correct?
    A. Yes.

    Kari Johnson, owner Have Trunk Will Travel, Incorporated, Trial Tr. 84:9-84:19, March 4, 2009 pm.

    Q. Now, Ms. Coleman, it's your testimony that the elephants are usually on the train for three hours before it leaves, right?
    A. Approximately. It can vary, but --

    Carrie Coleman, former veterinary technician for the Red Unit of Ringling Bros., Trial Tr. 14:8-14:10, March 5, 2009 pm.

    Q. Are the mothers chained during the birth, Mr. Jacobson?
    A. Yes, they are.
    Q. Would you explain how they're chained?
    A. Their tied front and back.
    Q. How many legs?
    A. Sometimes two; sometimes three.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 102:21-103:1, March 5, 2009 pm.

    Q. It's not a correct statement that the elephants at the CEC [i.e., Center for Elephant Conservation] get to roam and socialize to their heart's content, is it?
    A. Well, there's certain constraints that go with that.
    Q. For example, when I took your deposition on October 24th, 2007, you told me that the adult female elephants, including Lutzi, Susan, Mysore, Zina and Jewell, are all chained on two legs in a concrete barn from about three in the afternoon until seven o'clock the next morning, isn't that correct?
    A. Roughly, yes.
    Q. Okay. So they're not free to roam and socialize to their heart's content, right?
    A. Not at night.
    Q. And you also told me that none of the adult males go out on grass, isn't that correct?
    A. Correct.
    Q. So they're not roaming around in prime meadows at the CEC, are they?
    A. No.
    Q. Okay. And in fact, last week you testified that the males, when they get to be about eight years old, are put behind bars at the CEC. Do you remember that testimony?
    A. Yes.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 6:24-7:20, March 9, 2009 am.

    Q. And in October of 2007 when you testified at your deposition, you also testified that the young male elephants were chained on two legs on concrete from about three o'clock p.m. to seven a.m. the next morning. Do you remember that testimony?
    A. Yes.
    Q. So they certainly were not free to roam and socialize to their heart's content, were they?
    A. Not at night.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 8:2-8:10, March 9, 2009 am.

    Q. Okay. And when you testified in October of 2007, you also testified that an elephant named Emma spent about 22-and-a-half hours of every single day chained in a concrete barn. Do you remember that testimony?
    A. Yes.
    Q. So she certainly wasn't free to roam and socialize to her heart's content, was she?
    A. True.
    Q. And you also testified in October of 2007 at your deposition that an elephant named Shirley was also chained on concrete for about 22-and-a-half hours each day. Do you remember that testimony?
    A. Yes.
    Q. So she also wasn't free to roam and socialize to her heart's content, was she?
    A. No.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 9:10-9:25 March 9, 2009 am.

    Q. Now, it's true, isn't it, that once you separate the baby elephants from their mothers, those baby elephants don't live with their mothers at the CEC, right?
    A. Correct.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 36:7-36:10 March 9, 2009 am.

    Q. And if you look over at the elephant on the left as we're facing the screen, that's what we're talking about as weaving behavior; is that correct? A. Yes. Q. And that is what you refer to as stereotypic behavior, correct? A. Yes. If they're doing more than five seconds is how we generally record it. Q. So anything over five seconds, you would have recorded that as stereotypical behavior? A. In a repetitive manner, yes. Generally. Q. And that's characterized by the elephant swaying back and forth and rocking back and forth on its feet; is that correct? A. Yes.

    Ted Friend, professor at Texas A & M University, Trial Tr. 13:5-13:18 March 9, 2009 pm.

    Q. Now, this -- I think we can stop the clip. Thank you. Just so we understand because Judge Sullivan was asking you some questions about whether it's good or bad to be engaging in stereotypical behavior. It is the case, is it not, that stereotypical behavior is an abnormal behavior?
    A. Well, it depends on how you define abnormal, but we usually don't see it in the wild.
    Q. That would make it an abnormal behavior, wouldn't it?
    A. If you are defining your definition of abnormal as not in the wild, yes.

    Ted Friend, professor at Texas A & M University, Trial Tr. 15:13-15:22 March 9, 2009 pm.

    Q. And, in fact, this study, as well as the other one, also demonstrated that when elephants were removed from the chains, there was a substantial decline in stereotypical behavior, correct?
    A. Correct.
    Q. And, once again, at least in that context, you reported the decline in stereotypical behavior as a positive development for the elephants, correct?
    A. Right. When you went from chaining as the primary form of restraint to pens, yes.
    Q. And it was positive because, in fact, the elephants were able to engage in more natural behaviors, including locomotion, correct?
    A. Well, some more locomotion. In this one, we had -- we were talking about something called comfort behaviors; they could scratch a little easier; they could do a few things more, yes.

    Ted Friend, professor at Texas A & M University, Trial Tr. 39:7-39:23 March 9, 2009 pm

    A. Well, the popular conception or we would like to see -- we all would like to see animals engage in more what we might think of as natural behaviors or given more alternatives and going from chaining, extensive chaining, to exercise pens, free time, will give them more alternatives.
    Q. Okay. And that would be better for them, correct?
    A. We presume it would be.

    Ted Friend, professor at Texas A & M University, Trial Tr. 84:9-84:15 March 9, 2009 pm.

  • Public Safety:

    Q. Now, it's your opinion that elephants used in the circus, films, and public events must be reliably trained to keep themselves, their handlers, and the public safe, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And it's your opinion that free contact training is necessary to accomplish that, isn't it?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And you use free contact training with your elephants in order to accomplish that mission; is that right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. But free contact doesn't always work, does it?
    A. There have been instances where -- yeah, where it didn't.
    Q. Okay. Didn't you have one of your elephants escape and run through the Denver Zoo?
    A. Yes.

    Kari Johnson, owner Have Trunk Will Travel, Incorporated, Trial Tr. 100:19-101:8, March 4, 2009 pm.

    Q. And why are these males now handled with protected contact?
    A. They're extremely dangerous.
    Q. Why are they extremely dangerous?
    A. The adult males are driven by testosterone. They're pretty grumpy.

    Q. And what do you do with an elephant that's in musth at the CEC?
    A. Nothing. They're behind bars.
    Q. These elephants that you just identified for us that are now handled hands off, could you tell us how they were handled until they were eight years of age?
    A. These were all performing elephants when they were young, so they were all in a hands-on society.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 37:10-37:15; 38:2-38:9 March 5, 2009 pm.

    Q. It's true that Ringling Brothers handlers have been attacked by elephants over the years, isn't it?
    A. Yes.
    Q. And in fact, Axle Gautier was killed by a Ringling Brothers' elephant, wasn't he?
    A. Yes, he, he was.
    Q. And he was an elephant handler for the Blue Unit, wasn't he?
    A. Yes, he was.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 47:24-48:7 March 9, 2009 am.

    Q. And then there was another incident a little over a year ago involving the elephant named PT, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. He knocked Joe Frisco down, didn't he?
    A. I believe so.
    Q. And that was out on the road, right?
    A. Miami.
    Q. Florida, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Not at the CEC?
    A. No.
    Q. And Mr. Frisco had to go to the hospital, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. All right. And PT was only about three-and-a-half when that happened, right?
    A. Yes.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 49:21-50:11 March 9, 2009 am.

    Q. Now, there was a recent incident at the CEC involving the elephant named Emma, wasn't there?
    A. Yes.
    Q. All right. And she knocked Randy Peterson down and stepped on him, didn't she?
    A. I don't know if she stepped on him.
    Q. He had to go to the hospital, right?
    A. Yes.
    Q. He has a large scar on his face, doesn't he, from the incident?
    A. He had stitches, yes.
    Q. Okay. And Emma is that elephant we talked about earlier that you said was chained for about 22-and-a-half hours a day, right?
    A. That's Emma.

    Gary Jacobson, general manager for Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 51:3-51:17 March 9, 2009 am.

  • Miscellaneous:

    Q. Now, has the United States Department of Agriculture done any investigations of the company?
    A. Yes.
    Q. Are you familiar with that process?
    A. Yes.
    Q. How are you familiar with that process?
    A. Well, usually we're contacted by -- it develops in different ways. Sometimes we're contacted again by one of our units saying that a USDA investigator has come out to investigate a complaint that has been made, frequently by an animal rights group, or it might be on their own initiative, and we then contact the USDA and try to arrange to have them come at a time that would be convenient when somebody from the legal department would be there. We have the right to be there on the premises while they talk to our people and investigate whatever it is they're investigating.

    Jerome Sowalsky, executive vice president and general counsel of Feld Entertainment, Trial Tr. 38:13-39:3 March 11, 2009 pm.

    Q. Why did you have one [electric prod] with you on the Blue Unit?
    A. We had a newer elephant there. Well, we always had newer younger elephants there in some places. You know, you're going somewhere new with them, you know, it's a new environment for them, and sometimes you just need to get their attention more than others that the guide may not do.

    Troy Metzler, employee of Ringling Bros. Center for Elephant Conservation, Trial Tr. 35:8-35:13 March 12, 2009 eve.


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